Founders Forum: Thomas Jefferson
We present our next installment of our Founders Forum. It presents a Founder in a Q & A setting, addressing both Constitutional issues, and speaking to their intent with regard to challenges facing the United States today. All Founder's responses are direct quotations. In cases where several quotes make a more complete thought, we combine them in the interest of accuracy and a more conversational tone. We again thank Library of America for their generous help in providing research materials.
In this installment we feature Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, first Secretary of State for the United States, and third President of our great nation.
TPP: Greetings, Mr. President.
TJ: Good day.
TPP: What is your opinion of our modern form of federal government?
TJ: Two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution, so that the second will not become the legalized version of the first. It is a misfortune that our countrymen do not sufficiently know the value of their constitutions. and how much happier they are rendered by them, than by the governments under which they live.I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. Most bad government has grown out of too much government. Government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is big enough to take away everything that you have. The course of history shows that as government grows, liberty decreases.
TPP: What of the many federal programs designed to improve life for the less fortunate among us?
TJ: It is a duty certainly to give our sparings to those who want; but to see also that they are faithfully distributed and duly apportioned to the respective wants of those receivers. And why give through agents whom we know not, to persons whom we know not, and in countries from which we get no account, when we can do it at short hand to objects under our eye, through agents we know and to supply wants we see.
If each portion of the residents of a State will apply its aids and its attentions exclusively to those nearest around them, all will be better taken care of. Their support, their conduct, and the best administration of their funds, will be under the inspection and control of those most convenient to take cognizance of them, and most interested in their prosperity.
TPP: If you feel that our federal government has grown too large, where can it be trimmed?
TJ: When we consider that this government is charged with the external and mutual relations only of these States; that the States themselves have principal care of our persons, our property and our reputation, constituting the great field of human concerns, we may well doubt whether our organization is not too complicated, too expensive; whether offices and officers have not been multiplied unnecessarily and sometimes injuriously to the service they were meant to promote. It is not by the consolidation, or concentration of powers, but by their distribution, that good government is effected.
TPP: Is it right to promote a common American identity?
TJ: Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease.
TPP: What was your intention with regard to the Second Amendment?
TJ: The constitutions of most of the states, and of the United States assert that all power is inherent in the people, that they may exercise it by themselves; That it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press. The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.
TPP: You are well known for your support of dissent. Should dissent always be encouraged?
TJ: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. One man with courage is a majority. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. What country can preserve it's liberties if it's rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?
TPP: There is great concern over the banking system in America, and specifically over the Federal Reserve bank. What are your thoughts?
TJ: I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American Revolution, will occur when the government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.
TPP: Why do you believe this?
TJ: The country is headed toward a single and splendid government of an aristocracy founded on banking institutions and moneyed incorporations and if this tendency continues it will be the end of freedom and democracy. The few will be ruling. I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to trial and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
TPP: What are your thoughts on the ballooning public debt and deficit?
TJ: To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.
TPP: How important is it to vote?
TJ: We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate. All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
TPP: How is the average American supposed to make sense of our federal government as it is today?
TJ: Information is the currency of democracy. Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
TPP: You have always been an ardent supporter of a free press, and often the victim of it. What are your thoughts on the 24-7 news cycle?
TJ: The man who reads nothing at all is better than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. I do not take a single newspaper, nor read one a month, and I find myself infinitely the happier for it.
TPP: The intention of your "Wall of Separation" letter, which called for a separation of church and state is still a matter of debate. Can you clarify your thinking?
TJ: Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves, and force their views on persons of other faiths, undermine all of our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within the religion itself.
TPP: Is there no place for religion in the public square?
TJ: Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
TPP: Another subject of debate are your own religious views. You have been identified as a deist, an atheist, and a Christian. Would you care to elaborate?
TJ: I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I am satisfied that yours must be an excellent religion to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue and correctness. For it is our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be judged.
TPP: What do you see as America's future?
TJ: I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
With all our blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow citizens--a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.TPP: Thank you Mr. President.
RLB
Our other Founders Forum pieces can be found at Founders Forum
Categories: Founders Forum
Tags: Framers intent historical perspective political leadership
Also founder of the GOP and the ultimate Libertarian. God bless you Thomas. You were a most necessary ingredient in our founding.
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Yeah, not bad for a slaveowner who knocked up the pretty ones... not impressed.
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It's funny how 200 years after the fact a single man's vision is knocked down by his very human weakness. No one ever claimed the guy was perfect, but he aspired to his better angels, and we are the better for it.
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If not for the vision, there would be no United States. Happy birthday America!
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Enjoyed the article about my 1st Cousin, (6 gens ago), about his immortal thoughts and actions. I thank God that He provided this man of intellect and Patriotic ferver and Courage to further the cause of Independence. His exemplery and sacrificial life was an example of God, Home, Country through Service to Our Nation. We honor him as one of the Founders of this Great Nation. May God Bless America!
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Jefferson was a conflicted genius whose vision gave us hope for an ideal society that was only a dream back then. We still aren't all the way there, but if we follow the principles that he laid out, we will continue to build on a freedom that he imperfectly tried to achieve.
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There's no doubt that he was a genius, or imperfect. Jefferson and Washington, and a bunch of other Founders were slave holders. Adams was ardently opposed to the practice, as was Franklin. Jefferson railed against public debt, but then he went into debt to buy Louisiana. He's a complicated man, but America would have been different, and probably for the worse without him.
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Jefferson was the first Libertarian, and founder of the GOP (The Grand Old Party gets its roots in Jefferson's Democratic Republican party). There were opportunities missed, but Jefferson had the right ideas for what would make America a great land. He played a vital part in our creation.
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Glad you've started these up again. It's good to hear the Founder's actual words. People say that we can't know what their intentions were, but really the record is very clear in the instances of almost all of them. All you have to do is look and read. You mentioned Library of America. There is an excellent and affordable 2 volumes that they sell called "The Debate on the Constitution". Back that up with "The Federalist Papers", and you'll have a good knowledge about what our Founders intended.
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Sorry, I can't sit by on this one. For all of the talk about all men being created equal, Jefferson owned slaves. He also retained them after his death, as opposed to Washington, who freed his. Jefferson was talking about white, male landowners exclusively. Everyone who signed the Declaration was a member of that club. The country just celebrated it's 235th birthday and still the principles called for in the Declaration do not apply equally to all. Let's not get all worshipful about a guy who could write well, but not put his writings into practice in his own life.
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Kstowe, your absolutism flies in the face of Obama, who you clearly support. When independence was voted on, it was required to be unanimous (even though NY abstained). The important issue at the time was independence - so important that even John Adams, who fought over the idea of slavery in the Continental Congress, thought it best to back off and concentrate on the matter at hand. Without independence, there would be no mechanism to later take on the issue of slavery, because without the south and the north linking together there was no way to break free from England. We consort with all manner of people who we have fundamental disagreement with - Pakistan for instance. You do what you have to do to get the best possible good in the end. In case you hadn't noticed, slavery was abolished a hundred and fifty years ago. You need to come up with a new argument as to why the founding papers should not be honored.
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I agree, modoman. Another good point on that is that a black guy is President. Time to move on. America is founded on liberty, and Jefferson is a prime reason for that happening.
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There's a false argument being dished out here, that because a Founder wasn't "perfect" we should dimiss his ideas or vision. That is incredibly stupid. It's true that they were all politicians of a sort, and they all had blemishes, some had big ones. They were, as a group more honorable than anything we have out here now. Reversing that, who can say that our modern leaders don't have flaws. A conservative can list them ad nauseum for Obama. A liberal can do the same for Reagan. Neither argument represents the value of either man's work as a whole. Jefferson was flawed. It is true. But that does not diminish the value of what he did for the country.
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Thought this would be fun to check out and got an education instead. If these are all direct quotes, I'm understanding Jefferson differently. I always thought he was the liberal founder. He's really conservative. I really didn't know.
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"wise and frugal govenrnment, which shall restrain men from injuring each other, and leave them free otherwise..." - if we only could get back to that. The country would be back on its feet again.
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Now THAT'S what I call a definitive statement of Founders intent on the 2nd Amendment. TJ doesn't mince words does he?
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Jefferson makes a great point on support for the poor. When it was handled on the local and state level, it was targeted and effective. The current welfare state only came about in the 1960's under the banner of "The Great Society". Federalizing the problem of the poor has led to inter-generational poverty, and not a path to economic improvement. Even Bill Clinton understood that. Now, ufortunately, Obama is taking us back to Great Society by relaxing welfare rules, and failing to have an effective economic policy. It's not the job of the feds to care for the poor. It is best done on the community level.
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Good point largelife. James Madison (you should do a Forum piece on him) argued forcefully that the federal government was NOT to use tax dollars for charity. He said there was no Constitutional basis for doing so. He should know - he wrote the Constitution.
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But, just because it wasn't in the Constitution, does that mean we shouldn't do it? 220 years ago, local communities and churches took care of local needs. Plus, it was common for people to die from starvation or simple illnesses. Our country is now too big to rely on churches and local communities. Since we have the ability, shouldn't we care for our fellow citizens who can't care for themselves? Shouldn't we all take steps to ensure as many people as possible can help themselves, even if it wasn't laid out by the Founding Fathers?
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Ilike his view on American culture. If you are here, and you are a citizen, you are American first, anything else second. We have far too many people living here that have primary allegiance to another culture. They should be where their allegiance is, not here.
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I wish we had this kind of leadership for our problems today. Instead we have a bunch of self-serving political hacks. They have no sense of duty or country. They are just bellying up to the public trough and getting fat at our expense.
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The Difference between a Leader and Statesman is that a Leader is concerned only for themselves, and the Statesman is only concerned for Our Nation.
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