An Educator's Views On Public Employee Unions
We at TPP open our forum on a regular basis to people qualified to comment on compelling issues of the day. Today we bring you the views of a career educator from the Los Angeles area who has requested anonymity to protect her professional standing:
Unions have been a big topic of discussion lately. Many states are in seriously grave financial situations, and unions take a big bite from the budget. With the current situation going on in Wisconsin, the discussion has taken center stage.
I do not claim to be an expert. I do, however, have some solid experience with teacher unions on both sides of the bargaining table. I taught in private, public, and charter schools. I have been a teacher and a principal. I have been tenured, a union member, and an “at-will” employee. I like to think that this gives me a somewhat informed opinion, and hopefully gives you, as the reader, some insight as to my perspective.
I believe that unions were formed out of dire need, and served a wonderful purpose. For decades, though, the original mission of fighting for workers’ rights has been drowned out by the clamor for political power.
I clearly remember which battles the union chose when I was a teacher. The upper elementary grades (4th and 5th) had 38 kids in them, we were short on textbooks, and bought basics like pencils and Kleenex with our own money. We made the same amount of money as Kindergarten teachers who had 20 and students and an aide, for a half-day, and then were an aide to another fully paid teacher for the other half of the day. We regularly saw these teachers leaving for long lunches, Starbucks runs, or just leave for half the day.
In the meantime, the upper grade teachers were battling the district for help in the classroom. We suggested using one of those Kindergarten teachers to tutor upper grade students. The district agreed. But the Kindergarten teachers balked, and contacted the union representatives. Our union chose not to fight for supplies in the 4th and 5th grade classrooms. Or textbooks. Or smaller class sizes. Or additional help for seriously struggling students about to enter middle school.
No, they chose to fight to ensure the Kindergarten teachers kept their half-day of teaching, and half-day of being an aide. When the district starting hurting financially, they threatened walk-outs when it was suggested that Kindergarten teachers either work a full day, or take less pay. Oh, and they fought like crazy to be sure teachers could wear jeans.
Now, don’t get me wrong. My union did come through in a pinch. When a parent came to observe me but came in with a gun, my union rep got me out of that room quickly and very safely. And the chapter president came to the campus immediately, and advised me of my rights concerning my physical return to that room. They were great.
But it still begs the question: Are the missions of the unions aligned with the wants and needs of the workers? Is state money being spent wisely and frugally with regards to unions? My opinion is no.
Our union dues are being spent on political campaigns to put people in office that will keep the status quo. Our taxes are spent on keeping union leaders at bay. In California, at least, there are several full-time positions in the Department of Education dedicated to discussions with the California Teachers’ Association!
From what my friends and neighbors tell me, it’s the same situation with nurses’ unions, police unions, and firefighters unions. The same friends and neighbors, who are union members, agree with me when I say that I will not vote for a candidate endorsed by a union. That candidate will most likely spend his/her time in office catering to union demands rather than fighting for their constituency.
So, what do we do? I could go on for pages and pages about how unions have lost their way. But that doesn’t really solve the financial or ethical crisis.
My belief is that we need to start over. We should take a cue from Wisconsin and scrap the current system. And no, that will not bring back the days of no overtime, 12-hour days, 7-day work weeks, or no benefits. Those issues are law now, not something bartered into a bargaining agreement. We just need to start over.
When we start over, unions should be kept small and local. The Los Angeles Teachers’ Union should represent Los Angeles teachers, and not pay into an organization that represents the thousands of other districts in California. Every region and every trade have unique needs. It’s impossible to represent the working needs of several hundred regions when each region has different needs.
When we start over, I think every organized work place needs to be open. That is, we have to completely get rid of “closed shops”. When workers have an opportunity to make informed decisions about being a union member, they are more likely to stay on top of the operations of the union. It follows that if union leaders know they could lose members, they are more likely to cater to the workers’ needs.
That brings me to my final belief. I really think unions should not be allowed to contribute to, or publicly endorse, any political candidate without the express, specific consent of the union members. Armed with this consent, union-endorsed candidates would then be free to represent the interests of the people who elected them, rather than kowtowing to union leadership. Just think about the amount of money these steps will save, and how many more workers will feel supported and truly represented!
Again, I am not an expert. I am just an educator who has seen a few things. I don’t think I have all the answers. But I do think that I have a few points that will get productive discussions started. Until those discussions actually start, things aren’t going to get much better anywhere.
Our contributor is a subscriber in the Los Angeles area who wishes to remain anonymous. She is an Education Professional with 23 years of experience in both teaching and administration. She holds a BA in Child Development and a Master's in Educational Leadership.
Categories: The Economy, states rights, Civic Duty, Partisan Politics
Tags: Public Employee Unions civic responsibility education partisan politics
This whole "losing the mission" thing goes to the heart of it. When the unions were formed, they were correcting injusticies. Now they are jsut grabbing whatever they can get with no thought to the consequences. It's gone from equitable and fair worker conditions to "mine!mine!mine!". It's disgraceful.
Reply to this
I'm in health care, and it's the same thing there. We all work hard and with less and less. Resources are allocated to keep the union bosses in their cushy offices with their fat salaries. They use their time to buy politicians who do whatever they say. Then we are told to show up for rallies and vote for their candidates. A lot of people go along because the money train is speeding on. Looks like it's about to crash.
Reply to this
It only makes sense that this person would want to remain anonymous. I don't believe for an instant that this person is or was an educator. There are way too many errors in grammar and sentence structure for this to be anyone who has been inside a classroom.
There was always a divide between 4-6 and K-3 teachers when the state went to 20-1 in K-3. Believe me, I was at 38-1 when K-3 was 20-1. Those days are over now. 30+-1 and no aides is the new reality. 40-1 in secondary schools. Unions were originally formed out of a dire need. That need is not gone. There are plenty of administrators out there who are not capable of handling this much power. This is evidenced by the fact that they have all the power they need to "fire" bad teachers, but they choose not to because it is "too dificult". And movies are made about it. Shouldn't depriving someone of their livelyhood be difficult? That is what "due process" is all about. And then there is that 14th Amendment thing that guarentees that right.
As far as having union dues go to political campaigns, all members have the freedom to opt out of the portion of their dues going to politcal agendas.
I am still looking for that teacher who was able to retire on a 6 figure plan. People do not become teachers thinking they will ever get rich. I can not even buy a home in the district where I teach and my wife and I both teach. So if you are teading this thank a teacher.
Reply to this
Wow - look at that. A union hack heard from. Don't know where you are Don, but in California teachers are the 2nd highest paid in the nation. You could cut their pay by 20% and they'd still be the second highest paid. This state is getting flushed down the toilet and all of it is due to union bosses getting fat of off the taxpayer, and then not doing anything constructive in the classroom. I know many teachers. most work very hard, and most don't get squat from the union with regard to anything helpful in the classroom. We're not asking you to lose your job. We're asking you to stop being a greedy leech on the taxpayer and share some of the pin for a change.
Reply to this
No one is being deprived of a job in Wisconsin. No one is losing a pension. The teachers are being asked to contribute to their health care and pension packages on a level equal to that in the private sector. That's it. They get to keep their union ,but they are restricted to negotiating wages. The personal attack on the author is really unnecessary. It shows your own ignorance and predjudice.
Reply to this
Maybe it was dumbed down because the author thought you might stop by to read it. You were done a service and still didn't read it correctly. And you teach... maybe that's part of the problem.
Reply to this
The labor force has become the scapegoat for the irresponsible behavior of Wall Street. The trickle down effects of actions that were literally bailed out. If find it all ridiculous.
I am a 4th generation proud "union hack" as one responder wrote, I have spend my life watching individual truly fight the good fight. I would not be naive to say there is not politics in every organization. There is power incredible power in unions. And it there should be, it is the citizens that make up the unions. For those who are displeased with dues used for political action there is an option to opt out of supporting that fund. Likewise if a members is not happy with the political candidates endorsed by their local or state associations there are ample elections and opportunities that are typically uncontested to become a part of making the process "right" in one's mind. If you don't like how things are then change them And participate in the process.
In regards to the school supplies issue of the author wrote of, 2 words..William's Act. A law in CA that requires districts to provide textbooks and other resources for all students. As an former administrator the author should have known this. Again if they were unhappy with the leaderships decision in their problem. Then it was time to become a part of leadership and advocate for the voice of those they felt were not being heard.
The comments regarding CA teachers being paid the second highest salaries in the nation. It is the most expensive state to live and acquiring a basic credential is the equivalent of earning a Master's Degree in every other state. Do we not want professionals who educate, inspire, tend to and guide the nations children to be compensated for not only the education they have but for the work they do. One that is noble and like none other on the planet in a nation where we aspire for success but seem to be unwilling to pay for it in the public sector.
Wisconsin is a mess. Union leadership has made it clear an increase in health and pension is not the issue. The eradication of bargaining rights is the problem. I find it interesting the leaders of both the House and Senate's Father, Steve Fitzgerald, was recently appointed as the head Wisconsin's State Trooper. The state troopers are 1 of 3 groups that Walker has made exempt from his outlandish attempts. The other 2, firemen and police, along with the state troopers were the 3 labor unions who endorsed his run for governor. Each of these groups leadership has publicly denounced Walker's attempts to revoke bargaining rights. Finally on the WI fiasco the support of the Cook brothers who financially backed this election campaign is a point many are unaware of, or simple decide to ignore.
Mother Jones is looking down on all of us now shaking her head at us all. Shame on us ALL for not keeping everyone accountable, voting in every election and making it clear those in leadership, all forms work for us.
Reply to this
More deflection. We have your talking points. What solution do you propose? It isn't going to be more money. There isn't any. We don't care how deserving you feel. We're broke. Just because you think you should have it doesn't make it so. Plug into reality.
Reply to this
Not feeling the love here guys. It just goes to show how personal people are taking this. To give the teachers their point, they been promised what they are getting, and don't want it taken away. For the taxpayers, well, Ashley had it right. In most cases - NJ included, there weren't jobs at stake until the unions balked. It was the same deal as Wisconsin - you had to contribute to your health care plan, and your pension. People out in the private sector don't have any warm fuzzies for stuff that they routinely pay for. It's time for you guys to join the rest of us in sharing the pain. At least then you get to keep your jobs.
Reply to this
I'm with you on the tone John. Still, I disagree on substance. These public employee unions negotiated legally binding contracts with the state and local governments. The basis of our legal system is the enforciblility of contracts. You can't just snap your fingers and make them go away. When the teacher, fireman or cop signs on, he plans his life and career based on that contract. Now I agree that maybe those contracts were stupid for the states to offer, but they did offer them. It's not the union workers who are the bad guys here. It's not even the union management. They did what they were supposed to do. The negotiated the best deal that they could get for their membership.
Reply to this
I get where you are coming from. But, did anyone join a union thinking the current contract would be good for life? Consistently, I hear of meetings at the bargaining table to discuss the newest contract. Wouldn't that be a good time to try some new ideas?
Reply to this
Look the ROI in the Los Angeles area does not support what we are getting from the education system. We spend more per K-12 pupil than any district other than NY and DC, but all 3 cities have dropout rates far above the national average. 80% of the education budget goes to salaries and benefits. We are outspending almost all other districts and getting poor results in return. I don't have any sympathy for any of them. Maybe that restructuring that being proposed is a good way to go. What we have doesn't work.
Reply to this
Ok, I live in Madison, and this is a zoo. The news reported 70,000 people showing up to protest this past weekend, and honest to God, most of them were bussed in. There were buses carrying state teacher union demonstrators from at least a dozen states that I could count. There were buses from Organizing For America - thanks for the push, Mr. President. If it was 5000 local teachers demonstrating it would be a lot. They are treating the city like their own personal garbage can. Mountains of garbage everywhere. Sanitation can't keep up. You want to know why you get no respect? You don't show any. Go home. This is our business.
Reply to this
Now that I've punk-slapped Don, I can get to my point. I understand that this is what you guys are getting, and I understand it's a contract. You need to understand that whether the system is corrupt or our politicians are stupid, we don't have the money. I appreciate you teaching my kids - especially when you do it well. There are a lot of good teachers out there. I'm also paying more than my share of taxes, and I'm not going to pay more so that you can get your free health plan and pension. I have to contribute to mine. You need to suck it up and contribute to yours. I don't want anyone to lose their jobs, especially since the way tenure is structured the good, motivated teachers coming up lose their job so that burned out parasites like, uh, Don keep theirs. We're all in a financial bind now. Take your share of the burden and quit whining.
Reply to this
Nice...
Reply to this
Parasite huh? Name calling? Really? You have just received a detention! Granted I have been teaching a long time and I know if this were any other job, I would have probably been let go because I am at the top of the pay scale, even though I teach Advanced Placement classes and my scores show that I am pretty good at it. The only thing that matters using the business model is the bottom line. I chose a career that will never make me as well off as you and the benefits were there as a recruiting tool. There may have been a time when educators made no contributions to health care or pensions, but those days have been over for a while. As for you paying "more than your fair share" of taxes; Americans enjoy the lowest taxes in the world. We as Americans need to decide what we are willing to pay for and what we are not. I just can't believe that there are so many people wanting to bash police, fire, nurses, and educators. Public service is not for everyone and not everyone can do it and I am proud to call myself a teacher.
Reply to this
Welcome back - it takes courage to do that. Usually the discussion here is pretty respectful, but this is a real hot button issue. I agree that it takes sacrifice to go into public service. That is why education,fire and police are always the last thing on the chopping block. People want and value these services. Still, the benefits that were offered cannot be sustained in the current economy. It comes down to there are only so many dollars - less really with the high unemployment. In Wisconsin the teachers have been asked to contribute 5-6% to their health care plan, and a similar number to their pension. These are standard practice numbers in the private sector. The point of this is to keep any teachers from losing their jobs. It's a give back, but would you rather keep it all and terminate an estimated 8 - 10% of the teachers to make up that money? It isn't fun, but from the eyes of the taxpayer, it is fair. Teachers are not served well by a leadership here that just gives a "hell, no". It looks greedy and like you would rather sacrifice teacher jobs and increase class size rather than coming to the table with another proposal. Be part of the solution.
Reply to this
Just so you know most districts individually negotiate health benefits. In my district, as a single mother, I pay $700 per month out of my pocket just to cover my son. I assure you that many of these public employees in Wisconsin, unless they work in a district or area with no hard cap, are paying out of pocket too. They are being asked to subsidize their own jobs at this point. And each person's financial point of critical mass will be different. At some point there will be no more that teachers can afford to give back and jobs will be lost anyway. None of these discussions are about what is best for the student. What is best for students has long been absent from the discussion, much to the chagrin of teachers who just want a quality learning environment/work environment.
Reply to this
There is an angle on this that has been brought up many times here in other articles. The unions are being now led by the same spoiled baby boomers who were raised with a sense of entitlement. Harley has it right. Everyone is grabbing for "mine", and no one wants to sit down to discuss a solution. I think Governor Walker has shown maturity. I admire Governor Christie for just getting back in their face. Sometimes when you are faced with an instituional temper tantrum, you need to yell back to catch their attention. In any case, this needs to be fixed. The unions can either sit down and act as adults, or they can find another line of work. What we have now is unsustainable.
Reply to this
I spent my entire career in education, primarily as a teacher. I retired 12 years ago. I've got an excellent pension, and full health care coverage. I lived my life as a reasonable adult and saved and invested over the years. I'm comfortable. No one is asking me to do it, but I could give up 10% of my pension, and I wouldn't notice it all that much. The demonstrations going on in Madison really do resemble the chaos strewn around in the sixties. It wasn't constructive then, and it isn't now. It is just embarrassing.
Reply to this
Geez, i'm getting in late at this party. I have a more basic question. In 1981 Ronald Reagan fired all of the striking air traffic controllers citing the strike as illegal. He cited that there was no right to strike against the public safety. I'll see that and raise you. Since government jobs pay better than the private sector, and that the benefits are on the whole more generous, and layoffs less frequent - I propose that there is no right to strike against the public interest. You want to work for government, great. You agree to the package great. You have a grievance, there are procedures. You go on strike (or sickout) you get fair warning to get back to work. You don't - you're fired. If you don't like it, work in the private sector.
Reply to this
Upfront admission: I am a union leader. I own it. I am also a single mother working my rear off to be a good example to my kid, an engaged and knowledgeable advocate for my colleagues and profession, and an effective teacher for my students. It is insulting for workers, be they private or public sector, to say that I am not working hard and/or paying my fair share. I pay the same taxes that any middle class American worker pays. And I have taken an $8,000 pay decrease the past two years. Public employees HAVE shared the pain. Teachers and their students disproportionately so. Education makes up 40% of the CA state budget, yet sustained 60% of the state cuts the past two years. Over 30,000 teachers have lost their jobs, and the majority have taken pay cuts of some type all while paying more out of pocket for healthcare and classroom expenditures. To suggest that public employees do not share the pain is sour grapes.
As far as teacher pay in CA, it is commiserate with the cost of living. My rent in Oklahoma when I taught there was never the $1,800 per month I pay here. And why do we waste our time trying to take away from each other rather than look at the root of the problem: as we have abandoned progressive tax structures and embraced deficit spending in good economic times, we are now unwilling and unable to cope with the detriments of such during bad economic times. During down economic times, deficit spending is essential to shore up the economy. Now we can't even afford the services we demand to have. We demonize the very people who work beside us and for us. Public employees make less money than their private counterparts, hence the benefits packages that are used to lure quality candidates to the professions. Now the public wants to reneg on those contracts.
In Wisconsin, it has never been about the money. It's been about stripping collective bargaining rights from unionized employees the beginning. Union leaders have conceded the monetary demands, yet Governor Walker and the republicans in his legislature push forward with this bill.
Understand that all workers could and should fight for better benefits. All workers could and should stand up to the CEO's who make 500 times what they do and have golden parachutes that open when they get canned for poor product. Unfortunately, now teachers and other public employees have become the scapegoats of the angry middle class. As far as whether providing educational services is sustainable or not, well I agree with Don. What is it you value? What is worthy of spending our tax dollars on if not our children and their education? Why, as workers, are we bickering with each other instead of trying to band together to promote our common cause? We all just want to take care of our families and make an honest living. The vitriol against "unions" is shameful. Thank unions for your 40 hour week. And thank the weakening of the unions for the notion of the 40 hour week diminishing...
Reply to this
Now to address the author of the blog, not the responders:
Be aware that the Rodda Act requires that unions respresent ALL members. It's call Duty of Fair Representation. While unions are condemned for "protecting bad teachers," in actuality, they are performing their legal duty to provide due process to each and every one of their members.
And when negotiating, you don't give back what you've already gained for one job description to appease the anger of another job description (kinder vs. 4-6 grades). Negotiators should fight to relieve the environmental issues pertaining to the 4-6 grades. The fact that kinder is 20:1 is the district choosing to participate in a state categorical program. That means the state's rules apply. That alone creates disparity. If you want 20:1 or different work hours, then ask to be placed in a kinder classroom. As a multisubject teacher you are qualified. It's just unrighteous to criticize another's job performance and work environment without having walked in their shoes.
As far as the State Ed Dept meeting with CTA--wouldn't you want policy makers to at least speak to educators on education issues. I guess I don't follow the problem here. I personally know many of the CTA leaders. They are very knowledgeable on the issues and constantly conducting workgroup studies to ensure that CTA policy and actions are trying to address the needs of the members. Visit State Council some time to see how CTA works and the level of expertise needed on the issues. Don't just hurl insults as if CTA is a bad word.
Remember that any member can opt out of their union dues being used for political purposes. The dues money is still collected, but goes into the general fund to cover the expense of primary contact staff and such. You can get the breakout of CTA expenditures at CTA.org if you are curious how your dues dollars is being spent. I'm sure your local would have the same.
I am thrilled to hear that your local union representative came through during a tough time for you. Please keep in mind that union reps are teachers too.
I appreciate that you have thrown your voice and concerns out for discussion. Sometimes discussion can be heated an less than cordial. It is so unfortunate that is the case. May we be able to find common ground.
In Solidarity.
Reply to this
Excellent discussion. Julie, I think that you ran longer than the actual article, but you presented your points well. The other commenter speaking with a good perspective is Ashley. I don't know the particulars of what is going on behind the scenes in either Wisconsin of California, but it seems to be a shared problem. The unions won what they have and want to keep it. The states (both it seems) are out of money. I work in the private sector so I find it a hard argument to swallow that paying some on health care and pensions is this huge hardship. It's how it is. Julie, you have defended your position very well, but I would repeat what Ashley has said. What alternative plan do you offer? Who gets cut that isn't you, and isn't that self-serving? What services can we do without? Where do we find the savings that we need to make up the shortfall? Everyone is saying "I have given enough", yet it's not enough. What do you have by way of a solution? Speaking for me, I would need to hear that from the public employees unions. Instead we get these demands and demonstrations. At the least it's lousy PR for the unions. In this economy, nobody gets to demand.
Reply to this
The fact these states are out of money is NOT the fault of the workers. Continuously cutting taxes to gain political points without finding new revenue streams contributes greatly. This has been the modus operandi for far too long. Scott Walker cut taxes creating much of this deficit. CA's former governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, did the same thing when he came into office in 2003. Coupling these cuts with a downturn in income taxes (think out of work middle class Americans--including laid off public employees) and property taxes (think subprime lending and lax oversight of financial industry) have already lead to a decrease in state services. CA has laid off over 30,000 teachers. A majority of teachers have taken furlough days and pay cuts the past three years. Education in CA makes up 40 percent of the budget, yet has shouldered 60 percent of the cuts. We have done our share to try to shore up the state budget. Now we are being asked to give up our rights to collectively bargain too? This is ludicrous. (and make no mistake, I purposely include myself as part of Wisconsin's collective, as this issue is already moving from state to state.)
FYI: the public employess in Wisconsin--their only demand is to keep collective bargaining. They agreed to pay cuts long ago. Is the the "demand" to which you speak?
Make no mistake, this is not a fight about gouging taxpayers because they want raises. And when one cannot negotiate anything but concessions (as has been happening the past few years) then working conditions is the only place to at which to look. Demands are not being made, only a protest of the direction of the government. I believe that is covered by the first amendment to the constitution, and the framers actually invoke the duty to speak out against unjust government action in the Declaration of Independence. Please do not sell these employees short. They are not crooks trying to rob you and other taxpayers. They are just middle class Americans like you struggling to feed their families and stand up for their beliefs.
Reply to this
Ok, I don't have a horse in this race. I live in Texas and well, we aren't going to see this sort of problem here. We've managed our affairs better. We're going to be bailing out the CAs and WIs and any other state that allowed this to happen because that's the way it works out. I'm not trying to lower the debate here but here's my beef. Every day that the schools were closed in WI, it cost the state $6 million. Are the unions going to ay for that expense, or do the taxpayers just take the loss on that too?
Additionally, there were a lot of news mad about teachers getting doctor's notes to attend the demonstrations under cover of medical leave. So, I'm figuring which means that instead of a demonstration day without pay, they get a sick day with pay? I don't care if it was two people, the story is out there and it's not helping the union cause at all. Look at what paulin608 is saying. This isn't winning any hearts and minds, and in this debate that may be a critical factor.
Reply to this
Nice arguments all around, but they miss the point. On Nov 2nd the people elected these representatives into the majority to enact these measures. No one was making any secret about their plans - not Walker or anyone who ran on the Republican side. Elections have consequences, and the people chose this course. It would be over in 5 minutes if the legislators from Wisconsin and Indiana would stop hiding in their hotel rooms (also we assume at taxpayer expense) and come home from the sanctuary state of Illinois. Their defection doesn't change the vote, it just delays it.
Reply to this
Sandstormer has a good point. The people of the state have had this debate already and rendered a decision. It is up to the Senate and Assembly to carry it out. Pouting and shouting on the steps of the Capital Building does nothing to change that. And yes, they campaigned on this very issue.
Reply to this
Don,
Check the plank in your eye. Your grammar and syntax is awful particularly when compared to the original, anonymously written post.
Your excessive and unnecessary use of "that" tells me you probably stopped learning about grammar in the first grade. My guess is you're also comfortable ending sentences with prepositions. Furthermore, a truly educated person would use succinct language and say "...there were extensive grammitcal and syntax errors..." instead of laboring over too many poorly connected words. You've done the service of embarrassing yourself, and you've done a disservice to yourself by giving more credibility to the anonymous author through your own uninformed grammar and syntax. Furthermore, your colloquialisms show your inability to communicate outside your limited circle. I, for one, am glad my child is not in your classroom (or your wife's for that matter, especially since she seems to tolerate and accept your shortcomings...aah, how you must delight in basking in your mediocre, egocentric world).
I'm exceedingly grateful I had the privilege of a private school in the early years of my education. I'm exeedingly grateful my wife, who is a teacher (paid quite handsomely despite her half-time status), abhors the inability of unions to put education first.
You, sir, seem to me to be nothing more than average; a mediocre sycophant who kowtows to the unions because you really couldn't pass muster if they didn't defend your weakness.
Reply to this
Michael, you are an angry, bitter, small-minded individual to launch into an ad hominem attack against a teacher who is rightly and fairly entering into the discussion on this issue. You offer NOTHING to the discussion other than vitriol and hatred. How sad.
Reply to this
Congrats, Bob - you've got your first slugfest going.
Ok everybody - listen up! All we're doing here is justifying our own positions and not putting anything new out there. Unions - we understand that you have agreements and you do't want to give concessions. Perfectly understandable. We'll also give you that 30,000 teachers gave the ultimate concession of being laid off. That might not have had to happen if other measures were brought to the table to alleviate the situation. I have to say it's tiring, but informative to get through your epic comments. Here's your political reality. No one going to raise taxes in a tanked economy except maybe Jerry Brown, and that may work out for Julie. Otherwise, there's no new money coming in. Even the Feds have cut you guys off.
Taxpayers - it's not like the unions haven't given in this mess. They have and maybe there's more to give, maybe not. Some decisions need to be made. If you don't want your taxes raised (and it sure seems like you don't), then your government services need to be cut. Yeah, there's waste, but fixing all of the waste will be putting a band aid in a sliced artery. You claim to to want smaller government, but squeal anytime a cut is proposed. You feel the unions are getting over on you - maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but this much is true - the money that is there is the money that is there. If no more is coming cuts will be made. What do you want to lose? Teachers and cops? Garbage collection? Your library or parks? Longer lines at the DMV? Keeping the roads paved? None of the above?
The situation is the situation. We can sit and defend our ground all day but it doesn't solve any problems. Screaming "it's not fair" at people screaming "we're broke" isn't fixing anything. How about that "adult conversation" that Obama is talking about? We can have nobody happy and not fix the problem ,or nobody happy and fix the problem. Either way, nobody is going to be happy. Still, I, for one, would like to fix the problem. That's enough to cover me for the next seven posts. Can anyone toss out a real idea for fixing this mess?
Reply to this
Geez, John... I don't even want to follow that, but here I am. I don't have any solution in the short term for along term problem. I pay taxes, I do taxes for a living, and I like my kids teachers and don't want them hurt. I like to think that I am most people. Beck has a thing about 80% of the people just trying to get by as best as they can, and the looney 10% on each end driving the debate. There was even an article here to that effect awhile back. Maybe if we can get the looneys off the ramparts on both sides we can get the adults to sit down and work this out. This isn't Egypt, It isn't Libya. We don't conduct ourselves in this way.
Reply to this
Man, no short posts this week. I'll be the first. GO BADGERS!!!!!
Reply to this
Hell, bullfrog - did you shut down the debate? Maybe we should send you to Wisconsin. The only way to fix this is not negotiations and not concessions, but dismantling the system and rebuilding something workable in its place. I don't know how to resolve the issues with current employees, but any new hires should be required to accept these new terms, and instead of a guaranteed benefit pension, they get a 401k. I agree with the open shop policy as well. No one should be forced into union membership as a condition of work. They should be free to join if they want to, but it should be optional. I agree that this will be a state by state solution. It's time for Wisconsin to get on with theirs - their 15 minutes of fame is fading. Charlie Sheen is taking over the headlines.
Reply to this